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Post by Jake Seven on Jun 19, 2008 15:41:27 GMT -5
They do. They're still the worlds best athletes (Which was my point), I don't see your point. They're not American. They just play in American cities. I don't follow soccer, otherwise I'd point out the specific players that play for different countries other than own as well. When you beat the worlds best, you are the world champion. Which is why HHH is not  |
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Post by John Gone on Jun 19, 2008 16:12:39 GMT -5
Don't call it MY point. MY point is that sports in general are boring and get way too much money that could be better spent on other things.
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Post by Anthony Jordan on Jun 19, 2008 22:12:26 GMT -5
Are they the world champions? There are other basketball teams in other countries and with recent American failures in world basketball championships (Olympics and FIBA), it's not so easy to say the best American team is the best team in the world.
Also, American players play in foreign leagues, so they have the same claim to being "World Champions" as the Celtics in that regard.
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Post by Jake Seven on Jun 19, 2008 22:47:18 GMT -5
So, you didn't read what I said. That's fine. "When you beat the worlds best, then you are a world champion" If there are a handful of ITNL players that haven't jumped to the NBA yet, that doesn't reflect anything than they haven't been persuaded enough yet, or, they're Chinese. (They're stingy about who plays for American teams) The professional leagues in the States, when it comes to baseball and basketball, is the greatest collection of the worlds best talents. Yeah, and? We have their best players. No All-Star International team, would bet an All-NBA team (With the international players on payroll, on that team), simply for the fact that the 12 best players in the NBA...are the best players in the world. The talent pool of the NBA reflects the 360-some odd best players in the world. (With a tenth of that pool, being playoff bound, let alone the other 16 teams I didn't check) So, when you beat one of those teams, you beat the worlds best,...making you,.. ..get this.. Better than the worlds competitors. And world champions. I put you to the test AJ, or Dylan, go find some international players that aren't on an NBA team (Or an MLB team), and put them up against the Red Sox, or Celtics. Here I'll even help: www.baseball-reference.comwww.basketball-reference.comSlew of listings. Put together a team, then we'll jump over to WhatIfSports.com, and simulate that game 100 times... Let's see who wins. No? |
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Post by John Gone on Jun 19, 2008 22:51:38 GMT -5
Spoiler: Rocky wins.
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Post by Jake Seven on Jun 19, 2008 23:00:07 GMT -5
What defines a "World Champion"?
Defeating other countries, while their players play for us? Or beating the worlds best no matter who they play for?
Someone answer this..
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Post by John Gone on Jun 19, 2008 23:09:14 GMT -5
The question is a wee bit broken.
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Post by Jake Seven on Jun 19, 2008 23:11:36 GMT -5
Hmm?
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Post by Jake Seven on Jun 20, 2008 0:55:05 GMT -5
I'm still waiting for the people who say I'm wrong, to prove me wrong.
Any takers?
Or am I still wrong just because you say I'm wrong?
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Post by John Gone on Jun 20, 2008 0:59:24 GMT -5
Are you wrong because we say you're wrong or do we say you're wrong because you're wrong?
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Post by Jake Seven on Jun 20, 2008 1:17:09 GMT -5
Team Canada MLB: 2B Stubby Clapp 3B Corey Koskie RP Eric Gagne SP Ryan Dempster CF Jason Bay SP Erik Bedard SP Jeff Francis 1B Justin Morneau SP Rich Harden C Russell Martin 1B Joey Votto SP Adam Loewen Team Australia: RP Grant Balfour RP Peter Moylan Team Cuba: SP Jose Contreras C/1B/3B Eli Marrero SP Livan Hernandez RP Danys Baez SS Yuniesky Betancout SS Yunel Escobar Team Venezuela: 3B Melvin Mora 3B Edgardo Alfonzo RF Magglio Ordonez RP Ugueth Urbina RF Bobby Abreu IF Miguel Cairo RF Roger Cedeno RP Rafael Betancourt SP Freddy Garcia LF Richard Hidalgo SP Victor Zambrano IF Carlos Guillen MIF Marco Scutaro SP Kelvim Escobar C Ramon Hernandez SS Alex Gonzalez C Yorvit Torrealba C Victor Martinez RP Juan Rincon RP Jorge Julio SP Johan Santana SP Carlos Silva RP Wilfredo Ledezma SP Carlos Zambrano RP Francisco Rodriguez RP Renyel Pinto SS Ronny Cedeno SS Franklin Gutierrez 1B/3B Miguel Cabrera IF Alberto Callaspo C Dioner Navarro SP Anibal Sanchez RP Jesus Flores 2V Asdrubal Cabrera SP Franklin Morales SP Felix Hernandez Team Japan: CF So Taguchi RP Takashi Saito RP Akinori Otsuka CF Dave Roberts RF Ichiro Suzuki LF/DH Hideki Matsui 2B Tadahito Iguchi 2B Kazuo Matsui RP Hideki Okajima SP Tomo Ohka C Kenji Johjima RF Kosuke Fukudome 2B Akinori Iwamura SP Daisuke Matsuzaka Team Puerto Rico: C Jorge Posada C Ivan Rodriguez 1B Carlos Delgado C Raul Casanova 3B Mike Lowell C Bengie Molina 1B Jose Vidro RP Kiko Calero C Jose Molina SS Alex Cora RP J.C. Romero SP Javier Vazquez RP Pedro Feliciano CF Carlos Beltran RP Saul Rivera C Yadier Molina C Geovany Soto Team Mexico: SP Esteban Loaiza RP Antonio Osuna SP Ismael Valdez 1B Erubiel Durazo X Alfredo Amezaga RP Oscar Villarreal RP Joakim Soria SP Yovani Gallardo Team Panama: RP Mariano Rivera 1B Olmedo Saenz RP Ramiro Mendoza C Einar Diaz OF Ruben Rivera RP Manuel Corpas Team Taiwan: SP Chien-Ming Wang Team Dominican Republic: SP Ramon Ortiz RP Julian Tavarez SP Bartolo Colon RP Guillermo Mota RP Octavio Dotel SS Miguel Tejada RP Luis Vizcaino RP Francisco Cordero 2B Luis Castillo 2B Placido Polanco SS Julio Lugo DH David Ortiz LF Alfonso Soriano RF Vladimir Guerrero RF Jose Guillen RP Jorge Sosa SP Odalis Perez SS Rafael Furcal SS Cristian Guzman 1B Carlos Pena 3B Aramis Ramirez C Miguel Olivo RP Juan Cruz SP Wandy Rodriguez 3B Adrian Beltre SS Juan Uribe RP Jose Valverde 1B Albert Pujols RP Santiago Casilla C Ronny Paulino SP Daniel Cabrera 3B Wilson Betemit CF Willy Taveras RF Wily Mo Pena C Jhonny Peralta 2B Robinson Cano 3B Edwin Encarnacion SP Ervin Santana SS Jose Reyes SP Edinson Volquez SP Francisco Liriano SP Fausto Carmona SS Hanley Ramirez SP Ubaldo Jimenez 2B Alexi Casilla CF Melky Cabrera Link: www.baseball-reference.com/bio/140 International Players in MLB uniform last year.. 765 Total MLB players last year. I'll do this for basketball too...if needed. |
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Post by Xpress Success on Jun 20, 2008 4:53:13 GMT -5
CJ, congratu-fucking-lations on missing the point, which other users (surprise surprise) managed to cotton onto without the need for it to be spelled out. Seeing as you failed, I'll take the liberty of rewording my remark slightly:
There are teams from 2 nations in the MLB and NBA, all NFL teams are from one nation.
Now, why is that "ZOMG WE IZ WERLD CHAMPZ LOL" remark a fallacy? Because with the MLB and NBA, the other leagues around the world are in no position to compete (due to $$$). Might I also point out that in other continents, sporting codes, etc. world titles only exist at international level, separate from league/club play. Anyway, let's talk basketball first.
Right now you're seeing even more Europeans head over to the NBA (due to the sport's development in the continent), but I hope you understand that soon enough it will be financially viable for them to stay home in the Euroleague to ply their trade. Why? Because more and more rich businessmen (maybe you don't know how many billionaires there are in Europe, let alone those with a sporting heart) are throwing support behind the sport at grass-roots and pro level. What does this entail? The Euroleague will be a legitimate global competitor (which will happen much sooner than later), and the Americans will no longer be able to get away with their current culture of arrogance and complacency. The only thing luring European players to the NBA is $$$ - but if the Euroleague can match the NBA's wage structures (a very real possibility), the bulk of them will stay. Most of the world's best forwards and centers are European, America only dominates in the guard stocks. But that might present a legitimate means to find a true "world" champion at club level... the top Euroleague clubs vs the top NBA teams. Very soon you will find the disparity between one league and the other is negligible. More billionaires are dipping into their pockets for the Euroleague's development, and the media deals are going to expand also. In essence: don't be so smug, as if the US is the only nation where basketball exists.
Now for baseball... and all I really need to do is take a look at the real "world championship" results, taken from the Baseball World Cup. Looks like Cuba is by far the best nation in terms of wins, by a country fucking mile. Cuba have won the title 25 times, followed by the US and Venezuela on 3 apiece. What does this have to do with league baseball? Basically, it demonstrates that the MLB is only huge because of the money on offer, luring in droves of imports. Assuming you had American clubs fielding all American players, against a Cuban club with Cuban players... the numbers show that the Cuban club would put an almighty stomping upon thee CJ, I'm talking an absolute shellacking here. Winning the World Series (again, such a sensationalist name for what isn't a world title) warrants celebration, but not some "WHOOOO! WE'RE WORLD CHAMPS!" tirade. Fuck that shit right off.
The NFL? Doesn't even need explanation.
Now CJ, you were trying to draw comparison with football, the world game. I'll break it down for you nice and simple - clubs that win their leagues don't prance around calling themselves "world" champions. Bayern Munich won the German Bundesliga, but didn't call themselves "WORLD CHAMPS YEEHAA!", nor did Manchester United when they won the English Premier League, Inter Milan when they won Italy's Serie A, Olympique Lyonnais when they won the French Ligue 1, Real Madrid when they won the Spanish Primera Liga, etc... The point is, at club level, football does have measures in place to determine who the best clubs really are. Europe's top clubs all face off in the UEFA Champions League (which is by far the world's biggest club competition), South America's best play in the Copa Libertadores, etc. OK, so the FIFA Club World Championship (a tournament featuring continental club champions) is not ideal due to the lack of legit prestige and the mid-season scheduling, but at least it is a means of pitting the world's best clubs against one another. The WORLD'S best, not the best teams in a league where entrants are from only one or two nations. On a world scale, baseball and gridiron don't have anywhere near as much money or interest put into them as basketball and football. Even then, basketball is usually a #2 or #3 sport, behind football and rugby. And club basketball is skewed because right now, there is only one truly big league. Bolster the Euroleague and then you're in for a real ride. On the note of rugby (union, not league), we have 2 major club tournaments, the Heineken Trophy for European clubs and the Super 14 for Australian, New Zealand and South African clubs. I have yet to hear the winners of either tournament proclaim their club as "world" champions.
To the rest of you, who actually saw what the point was and took it on board (or agreed) from the outset, I apologise for having to roll up the sleeves like this. Must be a really boring read when you already saw what I meant. But maybe CJ will see it as well now.
My point: American sporting clubs/leagues have a habit of sensationalism, and it is truly nauseating. Even the MLS is starting to get that way. It is just typical of that "we are America, we are the center of the world" mindset. Also, as evidenced by FIFA's Club World Championship, which is perhaps the closest thing we have to a legitimate world title in a major club sport, world titles (or just the claims of "WE ARE WERLD CHAMPZ") in the realm of club sport are fucking absurd from the outset. American sensationalism at its best, as it will sell more merchandise to the stupid lemmings as a result.
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Post by Jake Seven on Jun 20, 2008 14:55:42 GMT -5
But again, you're talking about a nationalist champion. When the best countries play against one another.
My point is not that. I'm not talking about a World Cup/World Series of Baseball/Olympics kind of idea where everyone plays for their original country...
My point was, no matter where the worlds best talent it, whether it's in the States, or Canada, or Europe, or Australia .. if you beat the worlds best...you are worlds champions. No matter WHO they play for.
But this argument is done. I'll say one thing, you'll say another..it's fine.
At least I won't get this thread locked.
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Post by Xpress Success on Jun 21, 2008 4:49:44 GMT -5
Your theory is incorrect quite frankly, and the overwhelming bulk of the sporting world laugh it off as such. Only in America do you see the league's winners get all hyped up about how they're the champions of the world, seriously. The MLS is soon going to follow that path.
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Post by Anthony Jordan on Jun 21, 2008 8:54:27 GMT -5
Good points, Dylan, and, CJ, you still haven't addressed America's recent failures when playing international basketball. If we're going to claim our national champion is the best in the world, shouldn't that mean we dominate international competition? That would be like calling the MLS champions "World Champions" because the league pulls from an international pool. Just for the record, if that was attempted, the rest of the world would laugh us into oblivion.
The only basketball teams with any claims of being "World Champions" are Team Spain (FIBA) and Team Argentina (Olympics).
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