Justification

[mtmt]

I'm feeling a bit zen at the moment, so I figured this was a good time to try to give this post... it's something that's been on my mind for a while, but I had to bring myself to a good place before typing it up.

As you all know, I tend to defend a lot of people/actions that may be deemed controversial. School shooters, Benoit, the "murder" of the Bush Puppet, etc. And by defending these people, many times I feel as though I am looked at as a monster. How could I defend these violent, heartless acts?

There are a few factors... personal experiences... memories of psychology classes...

But the main reason I come up with these defenses, and voice them openly, is because it lets me sleep at night. Knowing that these sort of actions are the result of either ignorance, misguidance, or insanity allows me to have some faith in the human race. This world is ugly as hell, but I've got to see the good in it. The good in the people who do the bad. The justification.

There are people who I dislike. There are people I loathe. But with those people, I don't wish ill will.

With any major controversy, I look at both sides of the story. I try to imagine myself in their shoes. I come out not necessarily agreeing with the person, but at least giving a bit of understanding as to WHY.

Take, for instance, a rapist. I think we all agree that the rapist deserves imprisonment. We all agree that what he does is a sick, twisted thing. But the piece of me that demands seeing human decency, that piece of me shows understanding. Shows a bit of sympathy. Had the situation been different, had the rapist had a different upbringing, things would have ended up different. Rape is sadly, SADLY common in America... I actually know someone who has been accused of rape. I'm sure I know others who have raped, but their victims stayed quiet. THAT'S how common it is. The only thing that can really prevent it is education, but that can often fall on deaf ears.

Even Hitler... perhaps the most evil leader the world has ever known... even he deserves some sympathy in my book. In his mindframe, he didn't think what he was doing was evil. He thought he was doing everything for the Greater Good. I feel sorry for him BECAUSE he felt this way. His actions before and during WWII gave the Allies justification to go to war, and thank God we won.

I have faith in people. I believe they're basically good. A few become misguided, or become downright crazy, and tragedy and/or controversy follows. It's unfortunate... but as long as I can see the good in a person, no matter how hideous their actions seem, I can sleep at night.

I will not be responding to this thread. You all are invited to give your thoughts, even attack me if you want... but this thread was just a tiny bit into my thought process. I felt much anger at some of my opinions, and my hope is that I explained my reasonings. Even if you read this and your opinion of me doesn't change... it's how I am. If you can accept it, great. If you can't, then I won't bother to try to convince you otherwise.

[John Gone]

I don't think people are basically good. They aren't basically anything. Some people are alright, some people are dicks. But human kind as a species doesn't lean one way or the other. Is there good in the world? Of course there's good in the world. But good isn't the default position.


And someone's upbringing and other such factors justify nothing. It explains, sure. Someone got a raw deal in life, it led to a life of crime or whatever, the upbringing explains why they did what they did. But explanation is not justification. Say your hypothetical rapist had a different upbringing. So what? I think you're confusing the word "would" with the word "could." Rapists can come from any upbringing. Their upbringing may have led to it being more likely, maybe it didn't. But they did what they did. They could have always NOT raped someone, like people with the same upbringing did. You say you know people who have been accused of rape and probably know people who have raped. Do you slum it or did you and your cohorts have the same upbringing? I'll at least assume YOU didn't rape anybody despite having the same upbringing. Was that so difficult? Why couldn't THEY do that?

If someone had no control over their actions, that would be justification. But a lot of people, I'll even say most people, have a choice. Yeah, people make bad choices, some worse than others, but finding some arbitrary factor about the person that might explain what led them to the choice doesn't change the fact that the person had a choice.

["The EGO" MJW]

you are what you are.

[Anthony Jordan]

The only part of your logic that bothers me (Holtz touched upon it) is this sort of class determination you feel. Yes, upbringing plays a major role, but it's not fair to say that someone who comes from a poor family is more likely to be evil or do evil vs. someone who comes from a rich or prestigious family. I'm too much of a humanist to buy into that. Besides, if we look for justification in class, then we might start excusing their offenses or not treating the offenses with the seriousness they deserve.

I do get where you are coming from, though, and I have felt the same way. I think it is terrible that some people are in such awful situations that they resort to evil acts. However, assuming they have the exact same DNA, would it not be possible they could fall into the same kind of life regardless of class and experiences? I feel the person in question would just need a run of bad luck to be just as bad. Would a happy home life and a supportive family/social structure save some folks like thieves, minor violent offenders, etc.? I think so. I think you are right on that account. When it comes to murder, rape, and other terrible crimes? I'm not as confident.

I can see how you need that. I think a little differently. The people who do these things are in the minority and while they lack the strength to resist evil and do the right thing; many do, and that makes me feel better.

[Jake Seven]

mtmt said:

..the "murder" of the Bush Puppet

Just thought I'd mention that has nothing to do with class or mental stability. That has to do with terrorist bastards trying to brainwash an entire new generation of terrorist bastards. It's not justified because they grew up in a civilization that has warred for two thousand years and hated Western civilization because we stole common medicine, spices, and a mountain top from them in the Crusades. None of that justifies the killing of the United States of America's President, whether a puppet or not, on their national television.

[Kyle Heaven]

argh i could comment on this



but then i would need to go on a three day drinking binge to cheer myself up



so yeah nothing to say here

[Mikkey w/ Max Jewel]

I don't believe that. I don't believe it at all.

I'm sick and tired of people blaming their misfortunes on their parents and their surroundings. Look at all the famous people that struggled through their child hood. Some of them ended up caving in, like Kurt Cobain. Some people just want attention from people and do disturbed things for it.

But people saying they raped because Mommy didn't love them. And people that say they killed their neighbor because he ignored them like Daddy.... are idiots.

Sure, sometimes......most of the time, people cave in to their upbringings. But, like I said, it's a cop out.

I have an uncle that grew up in a bad house. He was mentally abused/ignored. His father wasted their money on alcohol. He physically abused the mother. He was forced to live with his grandparents for a few years, then went back home where his family was "better." Then one days, he told his father he wasn't getting his hair cut. His father then snapped, went to the bar, got shit faced, then came back and brought hell with him. It was worse then how it sounds. I've heard the stories.

And where is he now? It's a shame. A shame that everyone caves in...but he didn't. He now owns FIVE resteraunts. Has a family of his own, a beautiful house, awesome cars...and my Aunt is awesome too.

I don't buy into the "Poor Childhood" defense.

Matt, if the "GOOD" that people have in them was really there, then it would over come the bad in times of Murder, and Terrorism, and suicide, and rape..... There is no good in people like these. And if there is, they deserve to get the punsishments they get because they CHOOSE to ignore that good......

Darth Vader picked the evil force over the good force....He deserved to be killed....

[Mikkey w/ Max Jewel]

About the poor vs rich....

Rich kids that are spoiled do whatever they want.... then they use some kind of defense that..."Mommy and Daddy were to busy making money, and ignored them"


Fuck that, I'm tired of mommy/daddy defenses.... I wish they would be banned

[Xpress Success]

Whatever happened to putting your fuckin' chin up, being a man and shouldering the responsibility for your own fucking actions? So many people are so full of excuses whenever they do something wrong, and it's because we as a society have allowed motherfuckers to indulge themselves with it. "You can't blame me, blame my medication/parents/school/neighbourhood/upbringing/whatever." Take responsibility for your own actions, and don't let others get away with throwing bullshit excuses in your face to avoid being held accountable for their own poor judgement. The community at large needs to revolt against this trend of delegating blame to everyone and everything besides yourself when you have done something wrong.

Now I'll play out a few familiar scenarios, because I can:

"Mummy and Daddy were out making millions and spent no time with him, so he can't be thrown to the wolves for running over that poor girl whilst drunk. He was rebelling. He can't be held responsible for such actions." - Yes he can, and yes he will be. Maybe while fiddling with the toys, video games, books, and other such luxuries your client had lavished upon him, your client could have established a modicum of common sense and decency. But no, instead he wishes to swindle us with a tough-luck story as opposed to fessing up and shouldering the burden of responsibility for his actions. Do we have actus reus established? Yes. Is mens rea also established? Yes. Therefore, with no legitimate reasoning to excuse your actions, he is guilty as sin. I hope your client enjoys his stint behind bars.

"He came from a tough neighbourhood, and his parents used to beat him as a kid. So he isn't responsible for assaulting that woman, he's just a mere product of his upbringing." - Maybe his parents didn't beat him enough, to knock some common sense into him. Your client did not drop out of school until he was 16. By that time, it is firmly established in the classroom (and elsewhere) that violence against women is totally unacceptable. Not only does your client understand that what he did is wrong, furthermore he is attempting to excuse it by blaming his neigbourhood and his own parents. Mummy and Daddy can't hold your hand forever sir, and they most certainly can't while you are serving your rightful term behind bars.

"You have no idea how tough it is to be a black man in a white man's world. When he saw that Jewish man in a thousand-dollar suit, it was an instant throwback to the centuries of slavery his people had to endure. That anger boiled inside of him, until... the suit-clad man was left dead. Show a little empathy please." - How many years, of those centuries, did your client spend in servitude? If, as I suspect, the answer is zero, then he is not only trying to put forth an illegitimate excuse for his ill deeds, but indeed he is besmirching every man, woman and child who had to endure real slavery. Your client is a disgrace, not only to his race, but to the community as a whole. There is one way in which we deal with society's refuse, and that is to incarcerate them. I sincerely hope that your client enjoys his lengthy stay in the (insert prison name here) Country Club.

[Anthony Jordan]

This is why Dylan is the man. Read it and bask in his glory.

[Mikkey w/ Max Jewel]

*Bows to Dylan*